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Do you ever feel so much pressure to eat, see, and do everything on a trip that you end up feeling utterly overwhelmed and exhausted before you’ve even touched the ground? Same here. In fact, sometimes it feels like we get so distracted by everything we’re supposed to experience that we often end up missing out on the best thing about travel: actually getting to know a place. For this week’s episode we’re joined by Erika Owen, author of The Art of Flaneuring: How to Wander with Intention and Discover a Better Life, and sex and wellness writer—and Women Who Travel contributor—Laura Delarato to talk about how we all need to just slow down a bit when we’re traveling. The key takeaways? It’s fine to give yourself permission to do less, Iceland is a flaneur’s dream destination, and travel should be an opportunity to remove the noise in your life, not add to it.

Thanks to Erika and Laura for joining us this week. (You can pre-order Erika’s book here.) And thanks as always to Brett Fuchs for engineering and mixing. Check back every Tuesday for the latest installment of Women Who Travel. To keep up with our podcast each week, subscribe to Women Who Travel on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and if you have a minute to spare, leave a review—we’d love to hear from you.

All products featured in this story are independently selected by our editors. However, if you buy something through our links, we may earn a small commission.

Read a full transcription of the episode below

Lale Arikoglu: Hi, this is Women Who Travel, a podcast from Conde Nast Traveler. I am Lale Arikoglu, and with me as always, is my wonderful cohost Meredith Carey.

Meredith Carey: Hi.

LA: And for this week’s episode we’re joined by Erika Owen, author of the Art of Flaneuring: How to Wander with Intention and Discover a Better Life.

Erika Owen:Hi.

LA: And sex and wellness writer, and Women Who Travel Columnist, Laura Delarato, to talk about how well, we all just need to slow down a bit when we’re traveling. Whenever I’m in a new place, I feel a constant pressure to do everything. I need to eat at the coolest restaurants, shop the coolest shops, see that Instagramable weird art thing that everyone’s seeing, and prove that I was there. And I often end up missing out on the best thing about travel, which is actually getting to know a place. And Erika, you’ve kind of written entire book about this very thing.

EO: Yes. All 200 pages are about, essentially that idea that you just said.

LA: And to the uninitiated, what is flaneuring?

EO: Sure. So flaneuring, there’s a good chance you’ve already done it. It’s kind of like HOOGA, and that you’re very familiar with the feeling of it, but you don’t necessarily, you didn’t know there was a word for it. It’s wandering without intention, so it’s not choosing a destination, it’s just going outside going, you can be inside, you can be in a shopping mall, you can be in a park, and wandering without any point B in mind. So not interacting with your environment, but just being a wallflower.

MC: How do you feel like it has influenced the way that you take trips?

EO: Yeah, so I’ve always been a person who likes to plan one thing, maybe two things to do in a day, and then just get a little bit lost. Not to lost, because that’s disastrous. There’s so much pressure with making sure, like you mentioned, you’re doing all the coolest things, and that’s not what matters. Instagram is such a big catalyst for that and I think it takes your head out of worrying about what other people will think by just saying, I’m not going to care so much about what my route looks like. I’m just going to exist in what my route is.

LA: Wow. I’m like, I need that sort of framed somewhere in my apartment.

EO: I’ve thought about it a lot-

LA: That’s really cute, it’s an embroidery-

EO: For the past six months.

LA: Now. And so, full disclosure, Erika and Laura, the two of you are friends.

Lauren Delarato: We’re-

EO: Best friends-

LD: This is my best friend in the world. Yes.

LA: And when we were planning this, it really just came together so perfectly, because we were like, okay, we can just like make them talk about their trips together.

LD: Oh my gosh, yes.

EO: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

LA: So the two of you travel a lot. And Laura, I’m really interested to know how the way Erika prioritizes flaneurism, is the right, am I saying-

EO: Flaneuring-

LA: Is that a word?

EO: Yeah.

LA: Flaneuring?

EO: Yeah, we kind of made up the term flaneuring, to be honest. So you can make up whatever word-

LA: Okay.

EO: You can with it-

LA: All right.

EO: That’s good.

LA: Sorry to the flaneurs of Paris. But Laura, how has Erika’s interest in flaneurs, and the act of flaneuring impacted your travels when you’re together?

LD: Wow. I would say that for a really long time I felt incredibly landlocked to my location, and I didn’t really feel like I had the opportunity to travel or that I was like cool enough to be a person who traveled. And then I met Erika, and Erika had-

EO: Stop.

LD: We’ve been friends for a really long time, but like Erika had such a passion for it. And also had lived in so many different places, and really had this strong connection to like not always being in the place that you are, but being somewhere else and learning from that. And so when we went to Iceland together back in 2000, oh my gosh, when? Seven-

EO: It was like two years ago-

LD: ’17? Yeah.

EO: Three years ago.

LD: Three, wow. It was the first time I had ever really like traveled in a way that wasn’t with a family member, or when I had to go play travel soccer, kind of thing. It wasn’t with a group team, it was a place that I actually wanted to go with someone who I really loved. And for me, that was such a momentous moment, because I was like, oh, I can do this, this is a thing that’s available to me. And now it’s become this like huge source of power and that absolutely comes from Erika. And also, we walk to work together and that, I’d never thought that that was like a thing I could do that people do in New York and now we do it and it’s very cool and fun.

EO: Yeah. That was actually a lot of the book research, and I call it out in the back too, was Laura and I walking across the Brooklyn Bridge in the morning-

LD: Oh, gosh.

EO: Which is nothing I would ever recommend. But-

LD: It’s so difficult.

LA: Yeah, because neither of you live that close to where you work, right?

LD: No, I live in Bushwick.

EO: No. It’s a good like 3.2 miles from my apartment. Laura, so nice, she would show up on my stoop, was a great vision to start the day off with. We would always get breakfast at the Hungry Ghost on, is it Fulton?

LD: Fulton?

LA Ah.

EO: It was something, yeah.

LA: I go to that coffee shop.

EO: Yeah.

LA: That coffee shop.

EO: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And then-

LD: We eat breakfast tacos.

EO: We do.

LA: And then we-

LA: I saw one of the Succession characters-

EO: Really?

LA: There recently.

LD: Oh my gosh.

LA: Willa. Anyway, continue.

LD: And what’s cool about it is, Erika and I, and I’m sure everyone can understand this, is when, especially when you live in New York. Everything is so scheduled, you could barely see your friends. You’re constantly working, you’re constantly hustling, there’s always something to do. But, and I, we see each other a lot because of that because we’ve decided that we were going to make the time to have these walking trips to work, and it allows us to catch up. We FaceTime her mom, who I call second mom.

EO: We do.

LD: So it’s kind of a really fun thing to do with your best friend every morning.

EO: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

LA: Laura, I want to get back to something you said a little earlier, which was-

LD: Yes.

LA: That before you started traveling with Erika, you felt like you weren’t cool enough to travel.

LD: Yeah.

LA: What do you mean by that?

LD: I mean like, I just always assumed that travelers were these really dope human beings, who had a ton of money, and also they were just like cool enough to do it. They had always felt very confident, and very confident in their skin enough to go somewhere else that wasn’t part of their like world. And a place where they felt comfortable enough to be uncomfortable, and that just wasn’t what I thought I could do. I thought it was for cooler kids with cooler money and cooler things.

LD: And I was like, oh yeah, one day maybe and then it just never occurred to me that that can be a thing that I could do.

EO: I like what you say about being comfortable enough to be uncomfortable, because when I see you in your travels, and first of all you’re very cool. You’re a very dope person.

LD: Okay. That’s just because I got a haircut today.

MC: I mean, it adds-

LD: Maybe.

EO: To it. Is whenever you travel, you use your social platforms so well to crowdsource ideas of what you should see.

LD: Yeah.

EO: And you also, I know one of your favorite souvenirs is to get a tattoo in the various places you’re visiting.

LD: I have tons of tattoos.

EO: And I think it’s, that’s one of the things I do love about flaneuring too, is you’re going in essentially without your own plan. You’re kind of letting others form what your plan should be. I don’t know, I think that’s a pretty cool way to do it.

LD: Yeah. I love the idea of letting someone who’s from there, who has been there, tell me what the coolest thing to do, because there’s just so much, like a top 10 cool places to go to that’s on a tourist list to do. And that’s beautiful, and fun, and I want to see maybe one of those things. But I went to Chicago, I went to the coolest vintage shops in Chicago that were on zero lists. I randomly found a like improv theater that I loved, and it was just because like one person said to go there on my Instagram and now I have friends there because of those things, and it makes me really happy. Yeah.

MC: I’m wondering, I feel like sometimes when you slow down, like all I was saying earlier, it feels like you’re missing out on those top 10 coolest whatevers, especially when you’re traveling. How do you both give yourself permission to not try and do everything in one trip, let alone all of your travels?

LD: Gosh, after you.

EO: I’ll take that first. So, one thing I’ve learned about myself in the past five years, is that something I’m missing in my daily life is quiet. New York is a loud place, my brain is a loud place.

LD: Gosh, yeah.

EO: I think, yeah, you know.

LD: Oh my gosh.

EO: I think that that is something that really drives me to not feel, I guess you could call it FOMO, whatever you want to call it. Reminding myself that those are the most Instagrammable places for a reason. So many people are there, and a lot of them I speak about Iceland because that’s what I know the closest. Waterfalls are great, all of the waterfall, the route along the South, amazing. So many people are going to see them, you should see them once. But plan another trip maybe, depending on where you are in your life at that moment and how much quiet you need. You can always go back.

EO: You talk about, Laura, how traveling is expensive, and it is. But I think it’s also a really interesting challenge to try and figure out more budget friendly ways to visit and revisit those places. And you mentioned making friends in different destinations. I’ve made friends in Iceland, now who I stay with every time that I go visit, in Reykjavik at least. It makes it easier. It’s good to have friends, also cheaper to stay on their couch.

LD: Oh my gosh, I love a couch.

EO: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

LD: Yeah. I think that like when I first started traveling, I had that ambition to be like, I need to see everything because this is what you’re doing here. But then I realized as I kept traveling, I was like, “This is a chance for me to live as this person who lives here for X amount of days and that means going to the coffee shop, and doing what you need to do, writing in your notebook. I was in London for four days earlier this year, and I did some like cool things, but two of those days actually spent in a coffee shop doing some work on my own passion projects. And it felt really nice to just sort of like be, just be there, and be a Londoner for a little bit, and not have anyone question it. And the hardest thing was deciphering how to like understand money, you know? And even that was, and that’s like part of it. Like that’s part of the travel, and that’s the experience.

LD: It’s like sure, Buckingham palace is really beautiful and it is, but the things that I remember. Like counting out pounds, and trying to understand the, when we were with in Iceland, trying to understand the the large denominations in Iceland-

EO: Oh, yeah. That was funny.

LD: And trying to say words properly, those are the things I remember. I don’t really remember some tourists thing with a bunch of other people, I remember the small things.

EO: I think my favorite moment from our Iceland trip was when we were walking behind the red church in Vik, along the South. And Laura walked up on this hillside, and she looked like Brienne of Tarth.

LD: I did.

EO: And I was like, let’s take your picture.

LD: Yeah.

EO: There was a spot that we found, a perfectly mounded hill. And I was like, “This is great.” And that is one of my favorite photos of you, and also one of my favorite memories. We just, there’s no plan.

LD: Yeah, no plans.

EO: It’s quiet-

LD: We were just there.

EO: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

MC: I’ve talked about this trip before, but I also took a solo little trip to London like two years ago, and it was supposed to be a trip to Mexico with another friend. And then our plans got canceled, and I had taken a week of vacation. So I found super cheap flights, and had some good coworkers to help me find hotels. But the two things I remembered most from that trip are getting my nails done at Cowshed, and-

LA: Yes.

MC: Feeling so pampered and-

LA: I love Cowshed.

MC: It was just like, if I lived here I would go and get my nails done at this very fancy place, and I can like picture myself doing this and then one day I was really tired, and I filled the beautiful hotel bath. And they had the TV on a swivel, and I watched like so many hours of Great British Baking show taking-

EO: What a dream.

MC: Baths all day.

EO: Yes.

MC: And it was just really nice and that was when I realized how much I loved solo travel, was sitting alone in my hotel room in the bath.

LD: Oh my gosh.

EO: Mary Barry would have applauded that.

MC: I mean, of course.

LD: Of course, Mary Barry.

MC: Of course.

LD: Yeah.

LA: I will say, I’m from London, I’ve never been to Buckingham palace. I haven’t been to half the sites. It’s like, whenever you talk to someone who lives in one of these major cities, no one’s ever been to those. And that’s not, obviously they’re wonderful things to see and I don’t want to discredit it. But it is not, you’re not going to lose a sense of a place if you don’t visit those-

MC: Visit every single-

LA:Attractions.

MC: One of those places. Totally.

LD: Oh. I’m from New York. I’ve never been to the Statue of Liberty, because I’m from here. And I’ve seen it, I know what it is. I see it from one of these windows in this office, but it’s just not a thing, you know? New York is so much bigger than that, and London is so much like bigger than that, and integrated and cool. So I totally get that.

EO: I’m trying to think, I’m from Wisconsin. I’m trying to think of the one thing that I haven’t been too, that would be big and noteworthy.

LD: Cheese. Something something cheese. [crosstalk 00:13:18]-

EO: I was going to say, something, something-

LA: Like cheese curd factory is there-

EO: There is, oh, I forget what it’s called, but Cheese Castle of some sort, that’s supposed to be good. I will say, if you’re ever driving between Iowa and Wisconsin, the world’s largest truck stop is the place to be and see.

LA: Actually that reminds me of something I wanted to ask earlier, which is, to flaneur is to walk.

EO: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

LA: What if you’re in a city that isn’t walking friendly? What if you were in LA? What if you’re in Dallas?

EO: Dallas?

LA: See how well trained I am?

EO: Yeah.

LA: That was going to be my next city.

EO: There you go. Yeah, so I actually wrote a couple chapters about that. Being from the Midwest, and walking down the highway is not a thing that is ever advised. And is the quickest way to get from point A to B, even though you’re trying to avoid that when you’re flaneuring. I fully believe that you can flaneur while you’re driving. I used to do it all the time, and I still do it when I go home. There’s a particular route around Whitewater Lake, where I’m from and it’s just really beautiful around twilight. So I’ll drive with no direction in mind, and just take it in. And it’s not driving while not paying attention, of course you’re paying attention, you’re doing an act. But it is just noticing a very familiar route, and during a different time of day, even that can take you on a your mind.

EO: So I think you can do it while you’re driving. You can also do it, I mean I write about, in the book you can do it in Walmart if that’s all you have, like go people watching. That’s a great place to do that. I mean any shopping mall, my grandfather’s a big mall walker, or used to be. That’s fun to watch, go check that out. You can do it in any space that is accessible to you. And also if you can’t, if walking is something you can’t do, I think that the accessibility is also a thing that I talk about. So, if you’re in a wheelchair or just experiencing a park in a different way, a different city. Doing what you can, just don’t interact with your environment, just watch it.

MC: You were saying your brain is loud. How long does it take you to put yourself into the mindset of flaneur, or into a mindful space?

EO: I think it’s easier when I’m with someone like Laura, because you’re automatically, you’re talking about, we have a lot of observations of what’s happening around us. Or if we really-

LD: Yeah.

EO: Like some pair of shorts or something, I know we’ve talked about that in the past, that pass by. We’re like, oh, where’d they get those? It’s really easy when you’re with another person to pull yourself out of that. When I’m traveling, I find it a little harder. Whenever I go to Iceland, it takes me a day or two. Especially when I get out of Reykjavik, I try to go once a year at least. Just because that is my quiet space, and I find that I am very reset after I get back. And I love bringing friends every year so they can experience it. But it takes me like a good day or two to forget about work, forget about you know checking in with family, checking in with my boyfriend, that kind of thing.

LD: Yeah, I find it’s like the moment that I interact with someone, like the first moment. Because that can be exchange of money, it could be like, can you show me where this is? It could be anything. And the moment that that person speaks to me, I feel like I’m fully in it, and that’s it. And I’m like-

EO: I love that.

LD: I’m there.

EO: I’m envious.

LD: Because the rest of the time, prior to that you’re in your head. And you’re like, oh no, they’re going to know. They’re going to know I’m not from here. But then like the moment you get over it and you talk to that person, and then you’re like, oh, it’s fine. I’m going to order this glass of wine in Paris and I’ll be fine. I’ve already, I’ve broken the seal, so to speak. Yeah, but I would say the same thing. When you’re with a friend, and with Erika especially, when we walk to work or when we just hang out as human beings. It’s so nice to just sort of let everything go and just be calm with someone who gets you on a biological level, I would say at this point.

EO: That’s so sweet.

LD: I brought in biology to talk about our friendship. I am cool.

EO: Disgusting.

LD: It was so weird.

LA: Laura, I love that you brought up Paris, because you wrote a fantastic essay for us about taking yourself out to eat dessert in Paris-

LD: Yes.

LA: And using it as a tool to overcome greater fears, and I feel like that was also like an act of being a flaneur, and watching the world go by, and kind of reaching this more meditative state that allowed you to then break those barriers.

LD: Yeah, that was one of my favorite essays I’ve ever written. Because like as I wrote it I was like, oh my gosh, I feel like this is a therapy in X amount of words. You know? For me, I’ve always spent my whole life trying to be smaller, or trying to be a person who fit into certain norms of how my body should be, or how I should be with this body. For people listening, I’m a plus size person, which is dope, and fun, and great. But you don’t realize how many little things sort of integrate or go into your mind when you have a plus size body, and it doesn’t, some people are totally okay and feel great, but there are little things where I realize that I just wasn’t eating around people. And I would never say that I was hungry, and I would never order dessert because for me, those were just things that were not allowed.

LD: They were no, I was not allowed to be that kind of plus size person ever. And that’s sort of said to you as you’re a kid, you’re told to like, you need to lose weight, you need to not eat that. You need to not do that and then you’re an adult and you go to Paris, and you’re like, oh no, I need to eat stuff. Or you go to work and you need to eat, and you start to confront those bigger issues as bigger, like diet culture issues that come into your brain. And so when I was in Paris, it was super, at first it was really stressful. Just sitting down and ordering food, because, hint, hint, I don’t speak the language. So there’s that.

LA: You’re there counting out your euros as well.

LD: Yeah. We don’t know, it sucks. But of course you get over that, that’s fine. But for some reason, ordering creme brulee and just eating it by myself in a Parisian petite cafe, where there’s large windows and a lot of people around. Intense fear of that was so great, but then I was like, you know what? I’m away from everyone. What’s someone going to say to me? I don’t live here.”

LD: And so what I love about travel is that it allows you to just sort of find those fearful moments, and break through them, and I loved it. And so then when I came, imagine I came back and I was like, I’m eating creme brulee all the time. But what it did was it allowed me to like be myself and just be, and not feel so unhinged with a thought that like, oh no, I’m going to be, I’m making all plus size women, or all plus sized bodies, just like, we’re going down this wrong path. You know? And then challenging like, why does it feel scary to eat dessert in front of people? Why does it make me feel nervous, and why should I even care?

LD: And so it allowed me to break through that, but also challenge some pretty intense, fatphobic things that I had in my brain, that has been taught to me my entire life. So, it was a really beautiful moment, and it was a really fun essay to write. And I think a lot of my essays are all just like, here’s this crazy thing, and I’m going to try to get work through it, everyone come along the journey.

LA: And I’m in a foreign place where I’m doing it all.

LD: I don’t speak the language. Let’s go to therapy.

MC: When you’re talking about just being somewhere, you were saying that you pick maybe two things on a trip to make sure you visit, and then are flexible and it sounds like you do a similar thing with the advice of your social media followers. How do you plan a trip to not plan?

EO: Ah, I mean I just kind of, I really love hotel experiences and Airbnbs, so that’s where I put my focus. And I’ll pick some quirky, beautiful, A-Frame cabin in the middle of nowhere. And then be like, hey, who’s crazy and wants to come stay here for a week with me? Or something.

MC: Yeah.

EO: And then I will do some early research. I found the Herring Museum on my most recent trip to Iceland in this town called Siglufjorour. Amazing, the best museum I’ve ever been to and I was like, all right, that’s one 2e things. And then another thing, that I’m going to completely kill the name of, Tvisongur. It’s German artist, Lukas Kuhne, who made these cement sound domes up in the mountains above a town called Seydisfjordur. And I was like, all right, I’m also going to go to that on the same day.

EO: And I think just having those two things are a comfort object of sorts. It’s like, even if I don’t do anything else, I did these things and if I’m tired, I’ll just take a nap. That’s more just peace of mind for me.

MC: Yeah.

EO: Yeah. It’s pretty simple. I don’t think about planning, I’m not a good planner. When I moved to New York, I didn’t plan it. I got a job. I’m like, okay boyfriend, I’m moving to New York. Do you want to come at some point? and that’s been-

MC: Question mark.

LD: My whole life. And he said yes. I’m like, Great, good.

LA: I’m also not a planner, it infuriates everyone around me.

MC: It’s the same.

EO: Yeah, I mean I think it’s a great thing. It’s good.

MC: I’m a planner and I feel like I have to actively say like, and now we stop. I have done all this research, and I’m going to book these things and like now I’m making a conscious decision to not touch this anymore, because otherwise I’ll accidentally ended up planning the whole thing.

LD: Yeah.

MC: Yeah.

EO: Yeah, the sense of discovery is nice too, but it’s hard. It’s really hard when it’s so easy to gather information, and look on Instagram for photos.

LD: What I like to do, is I like to plan one thing that I have to be at for the day, and then I’ll just discover everything around it. So I have this really cool tattoo from Jean Andre in Paris, and you can’t see it, because we’re listening to things. But it’s a cool Parisian lady with a beret, with a heart on her boobs that are definitely out right on my arm, and I’m obsessed with it-

LA: It’s beautiful.

LD: So I knew that I was getting that cause I had been following him, and I loved his work. And I was like, this is what’s going to happen. He even made her like plus size for me, he made her bigger, just specifically for me. Which I was like, not a lot of tattoo artists would have done that. But on the way there, I found this crazy market. So I was like, oh, this is cool and then I found this really cool Ferris wheel ride in the middle of the market. And then I was like, oh, all right, that’s awesome and then I found this like place that made this like really amazing quiche.

LD: And I was like, oh, this is cool and then I went there, and then on the way back after I got my tattoo, I found this place called Retro Vintage, or however you say that in French. And I bought spikes or something-

EO: about to say it in a French accent.

LD: It was something cool. And it was this tiny little vintage store, and I bought my first leather jacket out of nowhere. And so, I knew I had to go to one thing, but on the way I was just like, everything’s going to be expansive from this and so that’s what I like, because you have a little place for yourself.

LA: Also like, a freshly made quiche and a vintage leather jacket, is the most Parisian way-

MC: And a brand spanking new tattoo-

LA: Yeah, her tattoo. What a day.

MC: Oh my gosh.

EO: Tell them the tattoo name.

LD: What?

EO: What’s the name of your tattoo?

LD: This is Jean. This is named after Erika’s mom.

MC: Aww.

LD: Who, first off, hates tattoos.

EO: She hates tattoos. She tells me I can’t get any more, and I still do. But she loved yours.

LD: Yes, she loves my tattoos. Hates Erika’s.

EO: I want to scream.

MC: This is what best friends are for.

EO: I know.

LA: And you know that if you get the tattoo and named her Jean, she’d be like, why would you do that?

EO: She would disown, she wouldn’t disown me. She’s a lovely, lovely lady.

LD: She’s the best. She texted me the other day just to be like, I was thinking good thoughts about you. I was like, Mom.

MC: Same.

EO: She texted me to tell her she got a hair cut today.

LA: Moms are the best.

LD: Yeah.

LA: They’re just the best.

LD: Yeah.

LA: Yeah.

MC: Oh, you should listen to the episode of Women Who Travel with our moms.

LA: Our moms.

MC: There they are the best. You’re talking about your trip to Paris, you’ve mentioned cabins, Iceland. Is there like a perfect trip in your mind when you think, oh, this was a great slow down.?

EO: Yeah. I’m actually, I’m starting to work on another book. And my perfect trip involves work, which is kind of weird. And it’s to Iceland, which is a place I’ve already been. But I won’t ever live there, so I just like to visit again, and again, and again. So I think the ideal trip for me is, Iceland has more authors per capita than any other country, and I would love to go for a week and just spend that week writing, having coffee whenever I want to, taking walks whenever I want to. I want it to be a little bit snowy, but not a lot of snow. So it has to be the perfect time.

EO: And it would be in a cabin in the middle of nowhere, within an hour’s drive of a city, so I don’t go insane. And that’s my ideal. I’ve obviously thought about this, because I have a week off coming up. And I’m not taking that trip, but I thought about taking that trip.

LD: I enjoy the fact that you’re like, this Iceland trip, that’s a little snowy.

EO: Yeah, just a little bit. Just a tiny bit.

LD: [crosstalk 00:27:02] extreme environment.

LA: Very specific time of year.

LD: Yeah.

EO: Yeah, like now in October.

LD: There was one day in Iceland where it definitely was the hottest day, hailed, snowed, and then rained.

EO: Yeah, it’s beautiful. I love it so much.

LD: I was like, “What is happening?” So I’m Italian, and my grandma’s from Italy and my whole family’s super Italian, like pasta on Sunday kind of Italian. And I’ve never been, I always wanted to go. And I feel like when I think of Italian culture, it’s always really big and loud, and a lot of things are going on and things are happening.

LD: But what’s really beautiful, a thing that I’ve learned from my grandmother, that it’s actually very at home. It’s very much we cook during the day, we go have gardens. One of my cousins in Italy is a painter. Things feel really slow, and languid, and beautiful, and precise. And there is going to the market, and there is going to dinner in cool places, but that’s like on Fridays or on, it’s very specific times, but it’s not during the week. And I find that to be, when I think about my ideal slow down travel, it’s probably going to be Italy. I’m going to be Diane Keaton, I think. No, Diane Lane from-

EO: Get it right.

LD: Under the… yeah, right Diane, from Under the Tuscan Sun. I’m going to buy a white dress, I’m going to get gelato. That’s what my life’s going to be. I got a few years. But yeah, I think it’s going to be going to Italy and experiencing what it means to be a part of that culture.

EO: It’s funny that we just talked about very comfortable things in terms of what we would want. But someone asked me recently, we were talking about the book and she was like, what’s a good trip I should take if I want to flaneur?” And I was like, oh, you should go somewhere that makes you a little bit uncomfortable. Which is kind of talking about what we mentioned earlier. Because then you’re forced not to focus necessarily on yourself, but everything around you. Which is the body’s defense mechanism, but also a good lesson in taking you out of your comfort zone. So I don’t know, it’s funny that I described something I would love to do. It’s like the cozy blanket of a trip that I just described is not what I would recommend for other people.

LD: Yeah. I always say, it depends on where, but I’d be like, go to New Orleans, get crazy. That’s why I’m like, go, have fun. I’ve actually been in New Orleans twice, and the first time it was like very touristy. I did all the things in the second time. I did all the other stuff. I found like a cool hotel pool. I found this like dope bar-

EO: Oh, a country club.

LD: No, I went to a country club, but then I went to another one.

EO: Oh, you found a better one.

LD: Yeah, I found all the cool stuff.

MC: I think New Orleans is such an awesome place to get out of your comfort zone, because there is really nowhere else like it. And it’s so walkable even though it doesn’t seem like it. The neighborhoods you can really dive in. The last time I was there was 4th of July, and we would walk in the morning, and then like go to a movie in the afternoon when it got too hot, and then walking in the evening.

LD: I love that.

EO: That is so smart.

MC: Because it was like 700% humidity, but it is. I think that when you’re talking about going out of your comfort zone, and being super observant as to what’s going on around you, I find that those are the times that I noticed the little things most. Because I’m so actively paying attention, because I could potentially get disastrously lost.

EO: Yeah.

MC: Even when I’m intentionally trying to get lost, you want to go up to a point.

EO: There like are so many ways to do it too, because you could put yourself in a controlled environment. Where it’s take a boat from Reykjavik to Greenland, where you’re not driving, commanding the boat, I don’t know the right word for that.

LD: Steering-

EO: Steering the ship, but it is like totally out of your comfort… Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know what that trip is for you either.

LA: Everyone’s different.

MC: Yeah, we’ll have to figure it out.

EO: Yes.

MC: It’ll be in our new year’s resolution.

EO: Ooh.

LD: Oh my gosh, yes.

MC: Come January.

LD: You have three months to think about it.

MC: To think about it, exactly. Do you guys have anything else you particularly want to get off your chests? Go ahead.

EO: I mean that trip that we took to visit my parents I thought, and you wrote about that.

LD: Yeah.

EO: It was like a really good example of slowing down. Do you want to talk about that?

LD: Yeah, I’ll totally talk about it. So I didn’t grow up with my parents per say, I grew up with my grandparents in the Bronx. And so my grandparents have always been my parents, like I legit call my grandmother every single morning. And she legit, she yells at me to put on a sweater, and I’ll be like, it’s 90 degrees out. So when I turned 30, or like right around the time, two years ago, actually right after we went to Iceland. My grandfather had passed away, and it was like the hardest thing I’ve ever had to go through. And it was like, I’m losing my dad. I’m losing the person who was the person I called every single morning, the person who helped me do my taxes, he was the person who taught me how to drive, everything.

LD: And while I understand that like grandparents are older and have a shorter life span with you, it was just not the same for me. And so like a few weeks after that happened and I was having a lot of, I was having a hard time with it. Erika was like, let’s go to Wisconsin, and hang out with my parents. and I was like, yes, I need to get out of this routine of sadness. And the craziest thing was, I did all the things that I was terrified of. I mean, all these weird little things that I was kind of terrified of. I do not like lakes, and I do not like-

MC: Oh, yeah.

LD: Bodies of water where I can’t see things. And we just jumped-

EO: It’s a creepy lake.

LD: It’s the creepiest lake-

EO: It’s pretty creepy, yeah.

LD: That you took me to. And I just like jumped off a dock, and at one point she goes, yeah, an eel swam by and I was like, I don’t care. And it’s almost like you’ve already gone through this really horrible thing, and your brain’s just trying to reset and find stuff. But it was super nice just to be taken care of for a few days, and go to a drive-in movie theater, and eat a bunch of cheese, and hang out with-

EO : Lots of cheese.

LD: Dan and Jean, Mom and Dad.

EO: It was also my brother’s college or no, he was moving to Arkansas. So that he was throwing a party, so there were like 40-

LD: Yeah.

EO: Under 20 years old or no, not under, mid-20 year old-

LD: Mid-20s.

EO: Young men. It was interesting.

LD: Yeah.

EO: Lots of beer, but-

LD: Yeah, but it was like a time for me to get out of my routine and sort of like take a break from being so sad. And I came back and I was like, oh, I’m okay. I’m okay. Of course this was hard. Of course I’m going to be sad, but it’s not as heavy on me anymore. And it was all because I just got out of my comfort zone a little bit, and I had never thought I’d ever go to Wisconsin.

LA: And I guess it reminded you that like you could feel different-

LD: Yeah.

LA: When you feel that sadness, you forget that you ever felt any other way.

LD: Oh yeah. Yeah, but it was like the best medicine honestly, for it. And I was really lucky. Thank you.

EO: Of course. You’re always welcome back. They ask when you’re coming to visit I think more than me.

LD: Probably.

EO: That’s fine. It was interesting to watch you slow down too.

LD: Yeah.

EO: Knowing you so well, and knowing how fast you usually run.

LD: Yeah.

EO: And just watching you, I’m like, all right, taking a beat. It’s okay.

LD: Yeah, because we all work so hard, and I am constantly working. So it was this moment where I was like, I can’t think about this, or anything else. I have to physically take a break.

EO: Yeah.

LD: And it was really nice.

LA: I actually have one question for you-

EO: Yeah.

LA: Which we probably should have asked at the beginning. When did you decide that you were going to slow down when you were traveling?

EO: That’s a really good question. The first thing that pops into my head is a trip that I planned with my brother. We went to Tromso, Norway. It was a gift to him for graduating his undergrad. And I said, we can go anywhere in the world you want and he picked Norway, because he knows I love Scandinavia. It was very sweet. And I caught a horrible sinus infection the day before we left, so I was forced to slow down. We did not take the boat tour through the fjords that we wanted to, we did not go skiing, we did not go dog sledding. Actually, I think we did do that one, but that was about all I could do.

EO: And that was actually a really tough trip to come home from because, of course I wanted to spend more time with him and do more things with him. And I was upset at the end of it to think, we don’t have this long list of amazing Instagram moments from our trip to Norway. But I was okay with that, because him and I, we had an amazing time, and we have a lot of memories from that. We met some people, who I still talk to you to this day.

EO: So I think that was the first time I was forced into thinking that way. The way my family travels too, is very, I guess I would call it quiet. So it’s probably been my whole life that I’ve traveled like that to an extent. My parents took my brother and I to Madrid when I was a senior in high school, because they spent, I think it was four years living in Madrid when they were first married, so they wanted us to experience what they had lived through. And I remember that trip being very, I guess lackadaisical, for lack of a better word. It was just very, oh, we want to eat here. Fine, Ryan doesn’t feel good. Mom, go home with Ryan. Dad and I will go drink at the bars, and meet German families, and do random things, that an 18 year old drinking wine in Spain should probably not be doing, but it was real fun.

EO: So I think there’s two answers. As an adult, I’ve realized it after that trip with my brother. And then I’ve always been a bit of a, I like to call it a lazy traveler in my head, but it’s not. It’s just watching, taking it in slowly.

MC: That feels like a perfect place to end. Erika’s book comes out next Tuesday, October 22nd, and we’ll leave a pre-order link in the show notes. Laura has also got an amazing bimonthly newsletter called 1-800-HEYLAURA, dedicated to accessible sex and body image thought starters. You can also find a link to subscribe in the show notes as well.

MC: If people want to follow your travels/regular lives on Instagram, or generally on the internet, where could they find you, Laura?

LD: Oh, they can find me @heylauraheyyy, with three Y’s at the end. Because it’s just sort of like, “Hey Laura, hey.” It’s really funny.

EO: That’s how I say it in my head-

LD: I say it too in my head.

EO: When I see it.

LD: Also Laura Delarato, it’s just so, that’s not me. I mean it is me, but it’s not me-

MC: Yeah.

LD: On the internet.

MC: Smart.

LD: So @heylauraheyyy.

EO: Mine is not as fun. It’s @erikaraeowen spelled with a K, not a C, in that Erika, first part there, on Instagram. And then if you search Erika Rae Owen, you’ll find a lot of articles about Iceland.

LA: I’m @lalehannah on Instagram.

MC: I’m @oheytheremere. And reminder that we’ve just launched our 2020 Women Who Travel trips to Colombia, Mexico, and Cuba. You can learn more info and sign up at www.cntraveler.com/wwttrips. We will talk to you next week.